Marth vs Fox
Common tactics used by Marth and counterplay
Dashback grab
Explanation: If Marth expects Fox to directly attack him, he will often use his strong dash back to avoid the attack then whiff punish with grab. Marth's dash back is especially strong because the animation shifts his character model drastically in the direction of the dash immediately.
Counterplay:
- Overshoot shine: Any attack can be used overshot to punish dashback, but using overshoot shine is especially strong for a few reasons: it works at every percent, leads to grab or up smash, and since it is active frame 1 you can decide last minute not to attack.
- Overshoot grab: This is both riskier than using shine and often the same reward. Since shine leads to grab this is usually not the best option, but can be useful near the edge if shine would push Marth to the edge.
- Overshoot dash attack: This can be very useful at high percents because it can combo into up air and kill. Its hitbox lasts quite long so it can catch Marth dashing back in at the end of his dash back. As a bonus, if Marth dashes back into it after a dash back then his DI will be perfect for comboing.
Subjective Notes: It is very important to get used to overshooting against Marth because you will see this interaction very often. Low and mid-level Foxes often get frustrated at this MU because they think Marth just keeps dashing back and fishing for grabs. In reality, many players do not overshoot their aerials enough or at all, so Marth's don't need to stop dashing back. If you feel like you are overshooting and are still getting dash back grabbed, you aren't aiming far enough behind Marth.
Late fair
Explanation: Marth's will often use late fair to make it difficult for Fox to approach. The reason that late fair is so effective at preventing Fox from approaching is that there are so many different timings and spacings that Marth can use to make it difficult to correctly whiff punish. Fox has to consider if Marth is fast falling or not before the fair. If Marth doesn't fast fall and Fox attempts to whiff punish fair at the timing of a fast-fall late fair, then Fox will be too early and will get hit by the no-fast-fall fair. If Fox whiff punishes at a timing that would work for no-fast-fall fair but Marth fast falls, then Fox will be too late and will likely get dash back grabbed. Marth can also drift forward or backward in the air before the fair, which also changes the timing/spacing for a successful whiff punish. Drifting forward can cause Fox to get hit by the fair, even if he guessed the correct fast-fall or no-fast-fast timing. When Marth combines fast-fall, no-fast-fall, drift forward, drift backward, and no drift it becomes very difficult for Fox to get the right timing and spacing to whiff punish late fair.
Counterplay:
- Attack before the fair: Marth is vulnerable while he is in the air before he fairs. If Fox predicts a SH fair he can attack before Marth can get out his fair.
- CC dtilt: At low percents, Fox can CC late fair and hit Marth with a dtilt.
- CC grab: Fox can also run up and grab after CC'ing late fair, but it is more difficult than CC dtilt.
- FH over the fair: Fox's FH takes about as long as Marth's SH, so you have to predict what timing Marth will SH at for this to work. If you FH and Marth doesn't SH, you can often escape to a platform.
- Don't interact: This sounds funny, but you really don't have to whiff punish Marth's late fair- it won't hit you if you don't run in to it. Marth has enough mixups where it honestly might not be advantageous to participate in that interaction. Instead, you can try to force Marth to be the first to approach. If the Fox has convinced Marth that he needs to be the one to approach, that is usually advantageous for Marth.
- Punish what Marth does after the fair: Because it can be so difficult to directly punish a late fair, Fox players often try to punish Marth's next option instead. Common options after a late fair are: dash back grab, dtilt, nair, early fair. Each of these options can be easily punished if you know that it's coming, but a good Marth will mix up their options to make it hard to guess correctly.
Approaching dtilt
Explanation: Marth's down tilt is fast and reaches far so it can be used to call out Fox's dash back while staying relatively safer than other options Marth has to approach. Dtilt often does not lead to a combo, but near the corner it can lead to edgeguards and at high percents will knock down and can lead to a conversion.
Counterplay:
- SH drill in place: Drill in place is probably the most common way to beat approaching dtilts from Marth. It cannot be CC'd, so it is a safer option then nair at lower percents while still leading to shine combos. Marth can SDI out to avoid the shine and potentially land a grab.
- CC dtilt: Fox can CC and hit Marth with a dtilt of his own to lead to big combos. Since Marth will already be holding down to dtilt, he will often ASDI down on the Fox's dtilt and stick to the floor. If Marth is at low percents he will be able to punish Fox's dtilt after ASDI'ing down. At mid percents Fox needs to tech chase to get a follow-up.
Down tilt in place
Explanation: Similar to using late fair, Marth's will often use dtilt in place to stuff grounded approaches from Fox. Dtilt ends very quickly and reaches far on the ground ahead of Marth, so it is perfect for beating grounded options while being relatively low commitment. Dtilt can be used to supplement dash back because dtilt in place beats any overshoot options that Fox might try.
Counterplay:
- Short hop aerial: Dtilt is amazing at beating grounded options, but can easily be jumped over to avoid the attack.
- Crouch cancel: dtilt can be crouch cancelled till very high percents due to it's low knockback. Depending on the spacing it can still be difficult to punish even if you successfully crouch cancel it due to it's long reach and speed, so you can also choose to dash or FH away after CC'ing.
Nair in place
Explanation: Nair can be auto-cancelled shortly after the last active hitbox, so it can be difficult to whiff punish. Like late fair, Marth can use this to beat out direct attacks from Fox such as SH aerials and even grounded approaches. The hitbox lasts longer than fair, so it can prevent approaches in a wider window of time. Like fair, Marth can mix up his drift and fast-fall timing to make it difficult to whiff punish.
Counterplay:
- FH aerials: Fox can often FH over the nair and attack from above since the hitbox is primarily in front of Marth but not above.
- CC grab: At low percents (before 17% I believe), Fox can CC the nair and attempt to punish with grab, shine, dtilt, etc.
- If Marth drifts forward, it is much easier to whiff punish than if Marth does no drift or drifts back.
NOTE: Marth has to wait till 3 frames after the last hitbox to be able to auto-cancel nair, so even though there's less landing lag there is still a 6 frame window at minimum between the last hitbox and when he is actionable. This is only 1 frame faster than simply L-cancelling the move.
Run up rising fair
Explanation: This is one of Marth's more safe approaches because he can drift back and cover his tracks with either a second fair, waveland, or empty land. It does not reach as far as some of his other approaches, so is used for overshooting less often.
Counterplay:
- Dash back: If Fox is close enough to Marth when he fairs, Fox can whiff punish an early fair after avoiding it with dash back.
- CC: If you CC a rising fair, you can punish with a variety of options such as JC upsmash, sh nair/uair/bair, and sometimes grab.
- Shield then upsmash: Rising fair has is -14 on shield, so depending on the spacing Fox can shield it then up smash oos to punish. If Marth spaces the fair well then upsmash will not work.
Overshoot dash attack
Explanation: Marth's often use this to call out Fox dashing back because it reaches quite far horizontally and can lead to big punishes.
Counterplay:
- Shield: Marth's dash attack is very unsafe on shield. If you shield it you should be able to punish it in a variety of ways
- Full Hop: Fox can also full hop over this and punish on reaction
Overshoot fsmash
Explanation: Marth's often use this to call out Fox dashing back because it reaches quite far horizontally and can kill at low percents.
Counterplay:
- Shield: Marth's fsmash is very unsafe on shield, especially if it's not spaced properly. If it is spaced well, you should still be able to wd forward and punish with a variety of moves.
- Full Hop: Fox can also full hop over this and punish on reaction. Fsmash has quite a large upwards hitbox though and can often catch Fox as he's starting his jump.
Run up grab
Explanation: Every character can use run-up grab in neutral to catch grounded opponents, but Marth's grab is especially large and rewarding to land against Fox.
Counterplay:
- Full hop: Full hop in place can be used to avoid the grab then punish on reaction with an aerial.
- SH aerials in place: drill, nair, and bair especially can beat out Marth's grab. If Marth spaces his grab well he can still use grab to beat out in place aerials though.
- Spot dodge: A well-timed spot dodge can be used to avoid Marth's grab and punish.
Defensive options
Slide-off DI
WIP